The Leadership Exchange

Leading Through Imposter Syndrome (phenomenon)

• Lupe Munoz, Steve McKeon, and Alex Aranda • Season 4 • Episode 3

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That gut-drop moment when you think, “I’m not supposed to be here,” can hit even the strongest leaders, and it often shows up right when you are growing. We sit down with executive coach and former military officer Mike Sweeney to talk about imposter syndrome in leadership, why it feels so personal, and why it is also incredibly common. Mike shares a candid story from a demanding, high-performance environment where he went back to his boss and asked if he was hired for the right reasons, despite months of hard work and credibility building.

We connect that to real-life triggers many professionals face: being a first-generation corporate leader, walking into rooms where you feel like the “only,” or switching industries and going from expert to beginner overnight. We also dig into the leadership side of the problem: how organizations can unintentionally create more self-doubt with rushed expectations, and how structured onboarding, peer buddies, and psychological safety that is safe to be brave can change the outcome.

Then we get practical. Mike walks through tools we can use when the inner critic gets loud, including going back to observable data, writing a “hero’s rebuttal” script, and using self-compassion to understand what that protective voice is trying to do. We even explore how challenge-based outdoor experiences like rappelling and blindfolded driving can surface the same fear patterns leaders feel at work and turn them into learning.

If you have ever over-prepared, downplayed praise, or wondered if you belong at the table, this conversation will give you language, perspective, and next steps. Subscribe, share this with a leader who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that hit closest to home.

Mike Sweeney:

Mike R. Sweeney | LinkedIn

SABER COACHING

How to find common ground when there is none | Mike Sweeney | TEDxWilliam James College

Episode references:

Tools:

  1. Use observable data (think Ladder of Inference)
  2. Hero's Rebuttal
  3. Curiosity and Care towards Critic Voice (Self-Compassion/IFS)
  4. Saboteur Assessment
  5. System review (is this simply a rational response?)

Books:

  • The Alter Ego Effect (Herman)
  • Self-Compassion (Neff)
  • Inner Game of Tennis (Gallwey)

Assessments:

Recent Studies:

Follow us on Instagram or on Threads @LEADERSHIPEXCHANGEPODCAST. We'd love to hear from you! What topics you'd like us to explore with you? What questions on our topics do you have? Say hello and start the dialogue!

Welcome And Meet Mike Sweeney

SPEAKER_02

Hey, welcome everybody. This is Steve McKeon.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm Alex Aranda.

SPEAKER_03

And this is Lupe Muñoz. And this is the Leadership Exchange. First of all, a little recognition for Alex Aranda. That's your first intro, Alex. Way to go. You flowed right in there. Nicely done. And to commemorate that's this special first episode with the three of us officially on the Leadership Exchange. We have an excellent, excellent guest, someone we all know and respect, Mike Sweeney. Mike, if if you could please introduce yourself to our audience, and then I'm going to pose you with uh a few questions to get us started on our topic today.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds good. And excited to be here on the first one with the trio. Yeah. I'll give you kind of both parts to my intro. I mean, if I think about the professional side of me, you know, former armored cavalry officer, leader in manufacturing, leader in learning and development, executive coach, team coach, and all of that stuff. Also a proud dad of three girls, two golden retrievers, pretty intense runner, comedy nerd, lit major, and I take teams and individuals into the woods sometimes.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. We may have to talk a little bit more about that one, that last one there, Mike. The other thing I think you should include in your intro moving forward is a past guest of the leadership exchange, right? That that'll probably increase your street cred a little bit. Top of the list. So so, Mike, you know, today's topic, we all agreed ahead of time. We're we're gonna talk about something that we feel is worthy of discussion is the imposter syndrome, specifically around leadership and in and as leaders, you know, that experience that. We're hoping you've got a story for us related to that, and then we want to then go into some deep dive into it. And probably there's a few of us that have a few stories about it as well.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I've worked with a lot of clients, especially as they're transitioning and leveling up and getting that sense of imposter syndrome. I remember I was nine months, so there I was, right? I'm nine months into this role at Bain and Company. It's an incredibly high-performing, intense culture. And I was supposed to drive this big change project. I didn't feel like I had the skills to do it. I was completely intimidated by everyone around me. And I actually went back to my boss and said, Are you sure that you hired me for the right reasons? Like, do you think I can actually do this? This is nine months in after I'd already tried to establish credibility. And I had this idea in my head of how good things were supposed to be because of the peer group around me. I was incredibly tough on myself and I wasn't sure that I was gonna make it. And that was probably the most intense, like high performance culture, not sure that I had enough backing, not sure if I had the skills, overthinking everything. So, yeah, I've had that feeling. And for me, uh, some of it was due to the system, and some of it is due to the things that I was thinking about

Defining Imposter Syndrome In Leaders

SPEAKER_01

myself.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for sharing that. Um how do you define imposter syndrome? That way our listeners can kind of get all get on the same sheet of music with us.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I I am far from a psychologist. I know that it is not really a syndrome, it's originally called a phenomenon. And it was, I think late 70s, some research on high-performing women or high achieving women. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but there's a there's a chance IP scale, imposter phenomenon scale, evidence-based. I tend to go back to the evidence when I'm feeling like an imposter. This is really when we have that feeling that maybe we're less than, maybe we're gonna be found out, maybe we don't have the capabilities. We attribute success to things that are external rather than internal. There are a lot of variations and splits on, you know, collectivist versus individualistic cultures, gender split, you know, whether you're the only. There's a lot of different components and things that are going on, but basically feeling like I'm not good enough and I'm not going to be able to perform is usually how I define it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's consistent with my thoughts on it. Alex, Steve, what what do you what thoughts or first of all, have you guys felt the same that same way as far as an imposter syndrome moment? Because I definitely have.

SPEAKER_00

I definitely have. And I want to share that even before I knew that it had a name, I I I kind of started to recognize some of the ways in which I would feel and think. And I I I think one story that part of why I wanted us to talk about imposter syndrome is because this was happening in real time not long ago, Mike, when us were meeting. I remember I'd gotten to dinner, Lupe and Steve were there, and we were excited to see you in person. And I was just sharing with them some of the anxiety that I was feeling. And they were, you know, they were kind of like scratching their heads and thinking like, well, why? And and it was just recognizing for me that this happens or was happening a lot to me. And feeling like this, I have to always be perfect, or I have to, and Lupe knows this about me. I have a tendency to over-prepare

First Generation Pressure And Belonging

SPEAKER_00

for things that are probably not that big of a deal. But but it goes back to just some of the things that happened to me. And this came out very organically over dinner meeting with you, Mike. And there were some things that we talked about that evening that were really, really powerful for me. And I feel like I made a breakthrough in some ways. And just acknowledging that I'm the first generation in my family to work in a professional setting, it's it's different. You don't have perhaps advice from people around you to tell you how you're supposed to show up or feel. And that's that's part of what has fed into this, but I'm I'm really glad that we're talking about it. And I'm I want to find a way to share some of the things that we talked about that have been really helpful for me since that discussion.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Mike, I don't know if you recall the dinner that we had. What I recognized is the conversation that we had on this subject was different than conversations that I've had before around that, where sometimes I've been in a position where I'm trying just to provide encouragement. I'll overthinking it. And in some ways, those can be really damaging things you can say to somebody that is struggling from it. And I think I don't know if you recall. Or maybe Alex, you can share with the uh listeners what Mike said, because I could see the light bulb go on as soon as he said that. I I could see you lit up, you smile, you're like, shook your head. Okay. Yeah. You want to share that, Alex or Mike? You guys remember?

SPEAKER_00

I'll start and then the first thing that really stuck out to me was Mike. You you talked about, you know, just the ability to recognize it, right? And and call it out. And that was on the surface, simple but definitely powerful. It was just kind of like, okay, acknowledging that that that voice is there. And then the second thing that you said was really trying to understand where is it coming from? And and and I think that's where immediately the the light bulb went off. And I started thinking about, hey, where where it comes from. You know, this is obviously going to be different for everyone, but that's where that element of, you know, being the first, and I'm the oldest of seven. My my parents are working class. They came here to this country and made a life for themselves, made a life for us as a family, but I'm first to go to college and first to really work in an environment that, you know, looks very different from where my parents have, where they worked, where they made their career. So that that was really powerful for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's actually one of the kind of key indicators that it could happen is kind of that quote, first generation effect. It's like first one to go to college, first one to be professional. I remember when I made it to a certain level, I like got this VP title and my dad called me and said, Do you get secret service? Like, clearly, that's not the level of corporate success that our family is used to. And I think some of that was playing out in my imposter syndrome story. Those voices that we hear, I find with clients often they recognize whose voice it is. It's often a relative, maybe a parental figure. And the the kind of high expectation upbringing is another thing that can bring out that voice of like never good enough, or you know, uh, we can pick up those identities. Like my brother had an identity, I had an identity. Like, who's the smart one? Who's the other one? And sometimes we're always working to come out from under that. And so that that emotion that we have because of that self-talk can be really powerful and also paralyzing. Um, I felt it, you've felt it. And I think for you, it's one of those of course you belong at that table. And sometimes it's our job to see and acknowledge in other people that even though they're feeling that, if we can see the thing that maybe they're not seeing and help reframe a little bit, it can create a sense of ease. But yeah, you definitely belonged at that table. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you for those words.

SPEAKER_03

Totally agree with that one. Um I'm you know, what I don't understand is me and Steve have been saying that, but it took Mike Sweeney's words to resonate with Alex.

SPEAKER_01

I I don't know what that says about me and Steve, but or maybe the Smith is the external expert, like an outside voice, easier to hear.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe that's affirmation versus advice, I guess. I'm not sure. I mostly I would I would counter just a little bit that what you said though, because we were coaching, right? We're doing a lot of coaching and supportive, really trying to point out the things that Alex had really a lot of strength in. And I I think the one thing that I I picked up in that conversation, and uh Alex had brought it up, is Mike's first point is well, acknowledge that you feel that way. Like that's that's kind of that first step is don't try and push it off, just say, okay, I'm feeling this. Okay, now what can I do about it? And that's that's kind of that moment that I saw Alex really kind of light up like she hadn't heard that from her two brothers, or if we had it, it hadn't been clear enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

No, uh I and it was it was great to to see that moment kind of play out in front of in front of me, or in front of all of

Career Switches And Confidence Whiplash

SPEAKER_03

us, but for me personally, in front of me. But I'm gonna throw a different perspective for you, the three of you. They you know me fairly well, I'll say, some of you very well. You know, I don't lack confidence. It's one of the things that's you can say a lot of things about me, but you can't say I don't lack confidence, at least in most situations. One of the most moments where I really truly felt inadequate was when I completely changed careers, and I feel like that type of scenario can be very, very, very different for for someone like cell and very disorienting because I I went from being in a manufacturing wine industry to mainline retail for a big a big retailer in the US. So I went from doing that to becoming now a store uh manager for a major retailer. I went from like being the person that could talk about anything related to what what I was doing or what it related to the business, related to the industry. I mean, I could I could talk away and and and be very good at it, I I think, to basically I felt like the village idiot when I went to this retail world where I knew nothing about some of the systems and the terminology, and it it really messed with my mind and my confidence. Like I just wasn't used to that. And so it really threw me for a loop, and I really had to like shake myself internally, shake myself to say you deserve to be here. You you were here for a reason, you just gotta learn from the ground up, and you need to be okay with that. Being now almost like a constant student instead of the teacher, if you will. I I feel that that's not because I had something internally going on, like in in my life. It it was really truly, I feel, just that moment of real realization that I don't know anything about this new world that I've entered. Mike, what what are your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_01

That's another situation that can bring up the imposter syndrome is high-stakes transitions or transformations. But it's almost like, you know, you were a caterpillar, you're going through some sort of chrysalis phase, and now you're a butterfly, and like, why aren't I flying better? It's like, dude, you just got your wings a day ago. And managing our own expectations of like how fast we're supposed to come up to speed with stuff. The discomfort of being in that kind of unknown space or or conscious incompetence, it doesn't feel good, especially when someone typically is a strong performer. Switch the context and it's a complete transformation. Even if there are some things that are analogous to the work that you did in the past, you know, one could argue if you look at the way like males versus females apply to jobs, like males will tend to apply to jobs if we have 40% of the skill match. Females tend to apply when it's like 70, 80%. So we tend to have a little bit of willingness to go over our skis. I'm painting with broad breaststrokes. So if you get a situation where you've been confident, you feel like, yeah, I can probably do that job. You might put yourself in a situation where, whoa, this is much, much harder. And I'm still supposed to be really good and I'm not yet. Yeah. That's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You're describing the feeling I had absolutely. But you know, the the great thing I think, at least from my perspective, going through that experience, I'm able to get ahead with with someone, let's say a new, a new leader on the team that is from a very different industry and coming in. And I always like to sit down with them and explain to them, hey, you may feel this. It's okay, it's part of the process. And I I'll share my own personal experience that like I did a few minutes ago, because then I I I'm hoping that that allows them to recognize that it's happening to them and be okay with it, and therefore get to the I'm okay with it, I'm gonna just learn phase now instead of getting inside their heads, and then all of a sudden that lack of confidence starts to really work against them in their a precious first few months of of a job.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I would add, Lupe, that what you just described has to be an intentional practice of an organization because they you have to realize, especially with new leaders, that is likely the feeling they're gonna have. And they they may not express it. And so I think it's really important just to know that that is a condition that is most likely gonna happen because when you read the literature on this, 75% of people face this through the throughout their lives, sometimes multiple times. And so I think you know, as you're developing new leaders in any organization, you really have to have that built in. And just the story I'll share is that you started a new role in a company where they're just insisting that for the first 90 days, even though I'm really a technical expert in kind of the area they brought me in, they're telling me go slow, to go fast, learn our business, learn, you know, get to know people. So they've they've given me the grace of I don't have to come in as the subject matter expert and make all these heavy decisions right out of the gate. And that is very intentional, and I think that's something that a lot of companies uh can learn from is just setting up that environment, especially with new leaders coming in. I I shouldn't just say new leaders, any any leader coming in, right?

SPEAKER_03

Kudos to to the the team you joined because some organizations aren't like that, unfortunately. Some organizations they immediately want you to start delivering some level of results, and some situations may require that, but unless it's there's like a huge, tremendous burning platform that you've got to address, organizations, even with those conditions, won't really give the opportunity and be intentional, like like they were with you about saying, hey, we want you not to have to make changes. We need you to learn and pick and understand our culture and really just uh acclimate, if you will, to to our team. And there's less expectations that way, right? Instead of, hey, you need to do all that and change the world, you know, in the first 90 days. You that that's a system, in my opinion, that's built to encourage or or foster more imposter imposter syndrome within the organization. There have been some studies, I can't remember the specifics of where I read this, but that said that if imposter syndrome is a sort of like a thing within your organization, many people are experiencing, it's probably you as the leader. If you are the leader, that's part of the problem, not those individuals.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Mike, from an L and D perspective, have you designed programs that really think about that condition as you're bringing new leaders into an organization?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, your comment was great. I mean, I actually wrote it down like make it an organizational practice, right? Because it there's one thing to say, hey, we're gonna give you the time and space to feel this, and it's going to happen. And also, as you feel it, communicate with others because they've probably felt it too. That I love that idea of building that into an organizational practice. For me, it usually came up with onboarding and really making sure that it's clear that there's some intention to the onboarding plan, there's a pace to the plan, there's building relationships to it, and it's not a race to goals. And it's not you come in, you have to have your 90-day plan. Smaller organizations, I think sometimes there's even more pressure because you're a, you know, you don't have thousands of people around. You kind of have to hit the ground running. So I certainly felt it when I went into the startup. But I think both building it into the onboarding plan as a practice, but then also, you know, making sure that there's enough safety. And I know people talk a lot about psychological safety. And I saw Amy Edmondson on a on a podcast, and she was talking about how she wasn't trying to create a safe space, she was trying to create a space that was safe to be brave. And it takes courage to say, you know what, I don't know if I necessarily feel like delivering at the expectation that you had when I started. And usually if the boss has a sense, they can say, no, you're still learning. It's okay. And I I appreciate the courage you had in saying that, but you're good. You know, if the leader kind of encourages that, I think that can make the make the imposter syndrome a little bit more normal that like you're gonna feel this. So thinking about it and onboarding, normalizing talking about it, and making sure that there's a safe space enough to say the brave thing like, I had to say it nine months in to my boss. Are you sure you hired me for the right reason? Like, what am I? And he's like, No, no, you're fine, you're still learning. This is a really difficult culture to understand. It's a lot of complexity and like you're on track. And that made me feel a lot, a lot better. But I haven't really built for the opposite of imposter syndrome. I've maybe built for increasing time to competence or decreasing time to inclusion, but I never thought about it like the opposite of preventing imposter syndrome. Knowing what I know now, I might have built things a little bit differently with intention, but I certainly would have added in those organizational

Servant Leadership Or Imposter Patterns

SPEAKER_01

practices that you're experiencing.

SPEAKER_03

We talk a lot about servant leadership. Alex, I'm gonna throw this your way. So there's imposter syndrome or phenomenon, imposter phenomenon, and then there's servant leadership. I think if you don't know what's going on inside someone's mind, some of the things that I think someone that's feeling like an imposter, some of the behaviors I would think are very similar. For example, you know, if you're if you're having those doubts of in of the imposter syndrome slash phenomenon, you're probably asking a lot of questions. You're not giving a lot of direction. You're you're kind of trying to see like, okay, what what does everybody else think before I make a decision, right? Well, a servant leader also can do that, or or the servant leader can be the last to speak, right? We've talked about this, Steve, on several episodes before, where, hey, you know, I intentionally will speak last because I want to see what the rest of the team, I don't want to bias them or influence them with my opinion of something. But is it the same? Is it not the same? And how are they different? What and what thoughts come through your mind when I with that question?

SPEAKER_00

I think that's a that's a great question as I was listening to you. Speak another example that came to mind was if you think about servant leadership, the praise uh goes to the team, and the imposter syndrome can uh creep up in the sense of balance in your own achievements and then from the servant leadership perspective where it's not me, it's all the team. So there's that that element of it's it's it's just a it's a tough situation. I was just trying to think about where from a imposter syndrome you don't the imposter phenomenon, you don't want to take the praise. So you struggle with taking praise when people recognize and it's that downplaying effect. And then from that servant leadership perspective, you know, as a leader, you're also wanting to just really elevate the team. Could one reinforce the other? Or I don't know if it's a good idea. Or work against it, right?

SPEAKER_03

The other two is kind of work against it. Uh so yeah, I I like the fact you're thinking about those two. That's the sort of the battle, I guess, if you will, around okay, which one which is it augmenting? Is it helping? Is it working against? Yeah. Mike, what what are your thoughts or Steve? What what are you guys' thoughts on that one? I mean, I love that example, right?

SPEAKER_01

The the person who keeps praise away and and blames all their success or or attributes all their success to external environments. You you could have a an imposter servant leader. Like, I don't think they're contradictory, and it probably would be hard to spot. Like you're always giving credit away, never taking credit. And that's kind of what we learned as servant leaders to do. That's like back to that Jim Collins level four, level five. You know, level four is Patton, level five is Lincoln giving the credit away. I knew early in my career that I am not Lincoln. And and and I sometimes really have to work to remind myself that it's important to be humble because it's not like a normal thing. I mean, I was growing up, my brother used to have a pencil holder that said on the cover, it was like wooden, and it said, it's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am. And it always used to make me laugh. So that's what was in the water in the Sweeney household. But I think that you could probably be a servant leader and feeling that sense of imposter syndrome. And rather than taking a moment to feel proud with the team, you take a moment to feel to give that pride away, that praise away, and not take any and still feel like your team is going great, but you're not a part of it. I think that's a great example of when it's almost dangerous to be too much of a servant leader that would lead you into feelings of imposter. I love that example.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's that's a really good point because you know you could hide behind it to the point you were making there, Mike, and live maybe too long in that that space, unintentionally, even right. So good point, Mike and Alex. Mike, I got a question for you just because I I think there's some interest here that that I've got. So a while ago I heard someone say that imposter syndrome is the same as fear of public speaking. And I and I kind of said, no, I don't I don't believe so. I'm I'm curious, Mike, what uh your thoughts are from uh you know the work you've done.

SPEAKER_01

Imposter syndrome and fear of public speaking. I mean, I imagine that if your fear of public speaking is because you feel less than, or you don't feel like you can deliver, or you overprepare on your sessions, like I think there could be a, you know, who am I to have something to share to a large group of people? You know, some I think people can have fear of public speaking for a large number of reasons. They had an issue in the past, they didn't prepare enough, some sort of kind of event. But maybe there's a connection if I don't feel like my voice is to be listened to. Yeah, I I don't know. I think you can probably have a little bit of one without the other and a little bit of the other without the other one, but I think there's probably a connection. Yeah. Um, sometimes people just tend to be a little bit more behind the scenes and would never want to hold the microphone, but are actually pretty competent and very confident in their own shoes and don't necessarily feel like an imposter. So maybe a little column A, a little column B with some connections in the middle.

SPEAKER_02

That was kind of my thought as well in conversation. And I kind of equate it to the fact that I've known people that are really confident in their like technical capability. And so the first time that you see them present or get in front of a group, you see not that same person. And it's it's kind of like you know, they just went off glide path and you're like, hey, whatever, you're the most knowledgeable person I know in that space. But it's that I think it is the you know the the real phobia of being in front of people and you know other things that come at you. But I think it's also to your point, Mike, I think you it's a compounding thing if you have imposter syndrome and all of a sudden you do have a speaking engagement, it can just really start to you know rattle someone's case. I I agree with you. I think they're two different, but they definitely overlap between them. I'm not an expert, by the way, either.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna throw the situational leader hat on for a second. So we got to remember that these are two different tasks. At the task of being technically competent, at the task of being a good public speaker. And this person could be that, you know, strong developmental level, super high confidence, super high competence at the technical task, and could be very low confidence and very low competence at the task of public speaking. And I think you're right. If if you add in a little imposter syndrome, I mean, I know for me, when I did my TEDx, I did it 50 times out loud. I was very prepared. Could I have gotten away with it at 20? Probably. But I did those extra 30 because I was worried like, am I gonna be enough? Am I gonna remember everything? Am I standing up in front of everybody looking like a fool? So I think you know, there's there's probably when the imposter system shows shows up to someone who is not a comfortable public speaker, boy, that can be a tough brain to live in.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I'm gonna compare it imposter syndrome, at least full acknowledgement that I'm I'm not an expert on this either, but I feel like imposter syndrome is like drinking alcohol. It's okay to drink alcohol from time to time. It's okay. When you're drinking alcohol daily, and same thing, if you're feeling like an imposter constantly, I imagine it's unhealthy for you versus, hey, just having moments or situational triggers that maybe cause that. But but again, I mean I could be wrong, but I just feel like that's when it becomes unhealthy, I feel, is when you're constantly thinking that there's got to be something very deep there. Alex, that I can tell.

SPEAKER_00

I agree with you, Lupe. And I think that the point that we're we're wanting to highlight is that imposter syndrome, it's it's normal. And if we think about most early career professionals, there's that natural tendency to feel that way. And oh, by the way, you're not alone because as we've said already, you know, the statistics are out there that says 60, 70% of people go through this. Now, to your point about uh not uh letting it uh derail your success, you know, I look at this as when there's that constant sound, that voice in one's mind that you're not enough, you're not enough. That's really where the mind shift has to change. And I I think it's a great opportunity for us to talk about you know some practices that people can leverage. I talked about what came out of our discussion mic, or number one, recognizing it or examining it, or but I I think it's I I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about the significance of having a great core group of people around you, their community. And I mean, on this call here, Lupe, Steve, and and now you Mike, right, that that really have been really impactful for me for helping to get to a breakthrough. And I talk to Lupe and Steve constantly about this, or and collectively they help me understand that it's okay to not feel ready sometimes, especially as we're embarking on in new things, and it it's okay not to feel ready or after going through a new training or whatever the the new thing is where confidence comes.

Practical Tools To Quiet The Critic

SPEAKER_00

And that's been another really helpful thing that I would share with others. What what do you what do you all three think?

SPEAKER_01

Like well, how to combat imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, practices worth, yeah, that early career professionals could definitely maybe lean on from time to time.

SPEAKER_01

When when I'm working with clients and we're typically doing some sort of change work, there's usually three steps that I see. There, there's what I call the edge, where they're kind of sensing that there might be something out there that's bigger and better. There's another phase, which I call the peak, which is about creating some sort of positive vision for the future. But then there's the unknown in the middle when you're actively moving from the edge to the peak. And in that phase, that's when the inner critic starts to show up really heavy. And I kind of see the saboteur voice, the inner critic, and the imposter syndrome all lumped in together. So there are a few practices that I tend to use. I mean, one is simply like going back to the data. Uh, I know Steven Lupe are quite familiar with the ladder of inference, but you've kind of got that observable data lake, and then you've got the data that you're selecting. So sometimes just simply going back rationally and looking at like what's available around me. Am I really a failure? Am I really a this? Has this actually happened? Okay, it's happened one out of 27 times. Okay. So that's certainly a rational way. I read this book called the alter ego effect, which I thought was really cool. It was kind of about taking on these other personas. And he has this tool in the book that I've adapted for my own. He calls a response proclamation, but I call it a hero's rebuttal. So if you're hearing something in your head like, you know, I'm not that creative, or you know, I'm not gonna be able to figure this out, you kind of have a set script that you create to combat that voice. And for me, mine starts with like, well, I'm the guy. So if someone says, if the imposter voice says to me, like, oh, you're not gonna be able to do that, because I say, Oh, yeah, well, I'm the guy who was able to go to school, finish it in two years, and then get that senior level job. I'm the guy that won that award that did this thing. I'm the guy that runs marathons, not because they're easy, but because they're hard. I'm the guy, you know, and so I just kind of stack up and I have a script of like five to eight things that I will say, and I'll work with clients sometimes to build that script, drawing right from the book. And if you have that, when the critic shows up, that can be really powerful, powerful way to combat it. The other thing that I've found helpful is in Kristen Neff's work on self-compassion, sometimes these inner voices or uh are really protectors, like preventing us from feeling shame or feeling embarrassment or feeling like a failure. And so these voices prevent us from trying things that could make us feel that way. So sometimes approaching that inner critic voice was a little bit of compassion and curiosity, we can start to understand what was it designed to do when we were younger? And maybe we can give that voice a different task. But that one is a little bit trickier, it's a little bit deeper. It's kind of in that internal family systems IFS style world. If you've read the book No Bad Parts, it's kind of like reorienting the parts of us towards something else. So kind of going to the data, creating a hero's rebuttal, and approaching that voice with calm and compassion. The last one, when it comes to naming it, is I use a free assessment, the saboteur assessment from the positive intelligence world. And that way you can figure out like which voice comes up most often, like hyper achiever, hyper rational, whatever it is. And there's some tools around that. Those are my four go-to's. I guess the fifth one I'd just say is look at the system. If someone on an executive team is the only, well, maybe there's some issues in the system there. Maybe the culture is super high stakes. I remember working at Bain, and one of the cultural norms was zero defect work. Kind of a tough place to live when you're trying to innovate. The idea was that they were trying to build in a culture that we we build in time to make sure that we check our work. But the phrasing of zero defect from me was like, oh man, I got misspellings and emails all over the place. That was like that was a cultural system that created some imposter, looking at microaggressions and figuring out who does and who doesn't belong, if there are mentorship gaps. So I think that fifth one is looking at the system and seeing is this actually a rational response to a system that is not making me feel welcome, or or is it something that's coming up for me? So that's a long answer to a short question, but that's my that's my five.

SPEAKER_03

I love those items. Thanks for sharing that, Mike. I I think the other thing is your comment about system there kind of triggered some of the things that we talked on the front end around like building a system that actually supports the opposite, one that supports not creating potential environment where the the imposter and phenomenon exists more prevalently. And examples would be being able to have a peer buddy, assigning a peer buddy to someone so that they can start to connect and be able to maybe share that vulnerability, like, hey man, I'm not I'm I'm feeling so inadequate right now, so that that peer can then also, you know, serve as that support network that that allows them to voice and acknowledge that and then have someone say, Hey, that's okay, that's it's expected. I've gone through it, you're not alone. It's it's part of a normal uh process with going into a different company or different, you know, industry, whatever that may be, different role. And then doing the things like Steve's experiencing where uh a structured onboarding where, hey, we ex not only is it okay to not do nothing but learn, but it's an expectation that you're not gonna do anything but learn. Those things are pretty powerful in kind of relieving that those conditions that that could lead to that feeling of imposter syndrome, I think.

SPEAKER_02

Well what's interesting is there's not a lot of literature out there that I I've run across in like must-read books, right? Around leadership or overcoming public speaking or overcoming imposter syndrome. It's kind of a a nuance because I think there's great opportunity in that space. And so in prepping for this call, I I went in and Googled and found several that are out there, and they're all relatively new. So I I think it's one of those areas that people are starting to recognize that hey, we we can provide some guidance on it, and it's it's definitely a powerful one. Throughout their life. So even children that uh kind of get the first time they they have an opportunity to be a starter in a game sometimes start to get those same feelings and and how that's managed really impacts them later on too in in their careers. Which is kind of interesting how it's kind of a lifelong thing as uh you go through life and uh a great topic for the discussion.

SPEAKER_01

There's two recent studies that I was doing some research on the inner critic. One is from 2025, as is the other from 2025. One is it was called Breaking the Vicious Cycle of Self-Criticism, and that was you know, this is an evidence-based study, and then the impact of self-affirmation interventions on well-being. Those are the two that I read, and I didn't find anything earlier than that. And I was kind of looking, I found the stuff on the like imposter scale, but when looking at how do you break it, and it's less about the awareness of it, but like what do we do about it when it shows up? I definitely do uh go back to that ultra-ego effect, Kristen Neff's book on self-compassion. And then also there's some good stuff in the inner game of tennis. I think I talked about it last time where you that have like the self-one and self-two, like one is the performer and the other is the criticizer of the performance. And if we can stay present, we can maybe shut down that other voice and just stay focused on the task. But yeah, there's some really interesting research coming out, and we all experience it. God, as soon as you said first time starting in a game, the pit of my stomach dropped, and I was like, oh my god, first time I was a left winger. And I think that is the most visceral feeling I've had about imposter syndrome. Like, what am I doing on the field? The other guy's better than me. Like, I hope I don't they hope they don't kick it to me. I had all of that.

SPEAKER_02

That's what the uh the author was saying is that we we just have had it so often that maybe that's some of the reasons why you know we haven't studied it more. We we learn to cope and and and get over it. But you know, Mike, I I think the other interesting thing that you spoke to Luke and I about, I came out if it was on our podcast or just on the the discussions of in the past was as you get a new group

Wilderness Exercises That Reveal Fear

SPEAKER_02

of leaders to work with, you go through some some learning, right? And I I think one of the things that was really interesting in kind of one of your new practices is taking people out of the area where they are very comfortable, right? So they're now going out into an environmental wood and they're it just allows more open discussion, right? A little bit of freedom, I think. And so the environment that that creates I think is also something that can definitely uh help people maybe recognize because I I I just I'll never forget that look Alex had that night when you said, well, first thing is just recognize that you're having it, and that's okay. I could just see that make so much sense. And I was like, I've never said that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we tend to first jump in and be like, that's crazy, you don't need to feel that way. And the acknowledgement, I think this is the dad of daughters recognizing that you know, sometimes boo-boos hurt. When I grew up, it was just rub a little dirt on it, right? And I had to kind of make that shift between, you know, pain don't hurt, and oh my goodness, this is and and um, and again, this isn't a gender brushstroke thing, but just I knew that the empathy and the vulnerability and the willingness to recognize and validate tends to be pretty, pretty powerful and and for anyone. But like we didn't do that when I was growing up in the cab.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I bet. Let's let's tie this to something and then we'll finish off here. Let's tie this to something you mentioned earlier that I said, hey, I'd I'd like I want to hear a little bit more about that. You do have these experiences for leaders related to you know going out into the forest, doing mountain climbing, though those types of things, right? Is the imposters phenomenon one of those targeted things that you focus on, or not necessarily, but can be beneficial for that too?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so so I'll I'll kind of put it in two camps. Like there are times where I go out on multi-day adventures with groups of folks, and they're usually mixed groups of folks. And and our kind of pathway is typically, you know, who are you now? What is the dream? Then what's the path? And usually in what's the path is like I'll never be able to, I can't. So you kind of face that inner critic as it relates to the thing they want to become. But we also was asked recently to put together an event for an intact executive team. And we tried to figure out what their business needs were and then match the exercises to it. So one of the days in our multi-day experience was centered around organizational design and building systems. And so we paired that with canyoneering. And in canyoneering, we had four different repels, and one of them was 120 feet. Some of them didn't really like heights. So, as we were processing that experience, you know, can you know, trusting your gear, trusting your guide, trusting the process, um, that was very, very difficult for folks. And sometimes the the voice that would come up is this is too much, this is too scary, I can't. And we spent some time processing like, when else does that come up? What are some of the initiatives that feel like 120-foot falls? You know, what's the risk here? What's the risk there? As that fear came up, that fear seemed to be analogous to the imposter syndrome. And so we're able to kind of get into that like, who am I to be CEO of this? Could connect with who am I to be trying to go down this 120-foot rappel? Um, it also showed up on our last day, we were focused on building high trust duos, and we had everybody in ATVs, the side by sides, and they would take turns driving, and every pair drove with the other another person. And for part of it, we wanted to also focus on you know, listening, communication, micro corrections, and then what it feels like when you lose visibility and control. It was kind of a delegation thing. So we blindfolded the driver, and only the passenger gave instructions. And we had just been doing some really difficult terrain, but we got we knew with the guides, we got them onto flat terrain right around the corner. So everybody kind of blindfolded up, and then we're turning the corner, and they think it's gonna be more kind of crazy stuff. So they're kind of explaining. Expecting, but they're definitely facing that fear like this is crazy. I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do this. Why are we doing this that anyway? And all of those kind of imposter feelings we were able to facilitate with a little bit of fear. And I think sometimes that can help. It certainly created a powerful, memorable experience that that gave us all we needed in the debrief. But I think those are those are some times where I'm not necessarily trying to create imposter syndrome. I'm trying to be aware when it appears, use it as an intervention, and then have a dialogue about what do we do with it now. But those are a couple recent ones where the imposter syndrome absolutely showed up.

SPEAKER_03

Very cool, very cool experience. I'm kind of picturing myself in that, trying to think of how I would feel if I was blindfolded and Steve McKeon was on the wheel driving. Super nervous about that scenario.

SPEAKER_01

So it's a great way to talk about trust. Yeah. And and it was funny, there was one point where there were there were three duos, and at one point they were all on like a single track, and I was behind them. And all of a sudden, they all started to move in different directions, even though we were on the same single track. So I had a good video of these guys moving in different directions. Like, even when we think we're on the right path, things can change depending on who you're working with.

SPEAKER_03

That's a good point. To wrap up here, we're closing in on time here.

Slow Down And Ask What If

SPEAKER_03

Excellent conversation. Mike, if you had to go back in time, and this is specifically think of those moments around hey, I that imposter phenomenon occurring moment. What what would you tell yourself? What little bit of knowledge would you share, or morsel of knowledge would you share with yourself back in the day if you could go back in time and talk to yourself?

SPEAKER_01

I think I would say two things. The first thing I would say is slow down. I remember working when I was at Gallo, I just joined Doug Rivesteck's team. I'll shout him out in case he's listening. Yeah. And within like three days, I was like, what are the organizational goals and what are the ones that I'm going to be? And he's like, Mike, you don't know anybody. Like, maybe you want to build some relationships. So I think like being less worried about am I doing enough? Am I achieving enough? And just slowing down and building relationships, paying attention, like being more observant of the culture around me so I can find the grain, and that'll make it easier for me to do change initiatives. And then I think the other thing that I would give myself is an inquiry that I give myself all the time now. What if it works? We spend so much time thinking about what might happen and the risk. And the what if it works? Like, what if it all works out as it was supposed to be, or maybe even better? I now allow myself the pleasure to dance in that question. And that tends to lead to some surprising success. It's almost like if you're on a motorcycle, you're gonna go and you're taking a turn. Like you're gonna drive where you're looking. If you're looking at the road, you're gonna go on the road. If you're looking at the ditch, well, that's probably where you're gonna go. So maybe spend a little more time on the sunny side and thinking about what if it works. Great advice, Mike. Yep. I wish I had told myself that.

SPEAKER_03

Well, well, when that time machine gets created, you you know your your the first things on your list will be now.

SPEAKER_00

Mike, I just wanted to say I I think that today's topic, as you know, is is definitely very personal to me. I really appreciate your insight. You know, you sharing experiences. I think that that is is really helpful, not just to me, but I know it will be helpful to many others as well.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Mike, just uh want to thank you for validating everything we've been telling Alex for years. And uh for whatever reason, he listened to you. No, but just you actually you shared just a minute ago advice you gave Lupe Alex and I not very long ago in doing some training, right? And just kind of, hey, stop worrying about what's not gonna happen, just go do it and see what happens, right? So I that's just great advice, and I I can't emphasize that point enough.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's something we can all benefit with. Mike, it's been a blast talking to you. We appreciate your time and and you sharing your knowledge. I would not have a problem if you were like the most common guest uh on the leadership exchange with what you bring to the conversation. So I love it.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. I'd be like a regular, like Norman Cheers. There you go. Yeah. That'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Appreciate connecting with you, and it's it's been a blast talking about this topic. But we must end the episode today. So, with that said, um, I'm Lupe Munoz.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Alex Duranda, and I'm Steve McKeon. Thank you for joining us and Mike Sweeney on the Leadership Exchange.

SPEAKER_03

Have a great day.