The Leadership Exchange
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The Leadership Exchange
S3E3 - Beyond People-Pleasing: Recalibrating Your Understanding of Servant Leadership
Lupe Munoz and Steve McKeon tackle common misconceptions about servant leadership and provide practical insights for avoiding leadership pitfalls while genuinely serving your team.
• Servant leadership is often confused with people-pleasing, but true servant leaders maintain accountability
• Holding team members accountable can actually be an act of servant leadership when framed as a development opportunity
• Over-functioning for your team by solving all problems yourself prevents growth and learning
• Sometimes leaders need to step back and observe to find root causes rather than just manage symptoms
• Servant leadership doesn't mean always achieving consensus before making decisions
• Effective servant leaders seek input and listen to understand, even if they make unpopular decisions
• Self-care is essential—an exhausted leader can't effectively serve their team
• Listen first and speak last to avoid influencing team opinions prematurely
• Create psychological safety where team members feel comfortable disagreeing respectfully
• Proactively develop all team members, not just those who ask for growth opportunities
• Servant leadership is related to transformational leadership but requires knowing when different leadership approaches are needed
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Hello everyone.
Speaker 2:This is Lupe Munoz and I'm Steve McKeon, and welcome to the Leadership Exchange. Preparing for this episode, we've talked about a couple different things based on some questions that we've had, either through training that we've done or through some of the podcast listeners, and today we wanted to just focus a little bit on some of the areas around servant leadership and some of the misconceptions around servant leadership Also we want to talk a little bit more about the common mistakes that can be made by leaders thinking that they are exhibiting servant leadership.
Speaker 1:When we talked about this, I decided to do two things. Well, I did one thing and then it reminded me of something. The first thing I decided to do is ask AI. I went to chat GPT and asked AI a question and then compare my thoughts to what it gave me to see how on board I was with ChatGPT, and the question I asked it was what are the common mistakes that leaders make in the spirit of servant leadership at work? And it gave me a really great list, and so I think we've got a lot of material, a lot of examples and stories that we could share that give context to these, but the common mistakes are confusing servanthood with people pleasing, avoiding accountability, over-functioning for the team, neglecting their own needs, failing to provide direction, misreading culture or context and lack of clarity on the roles. That's the list.
Speaker 1:I think there's some really great stuff, but one of the things that came to mind when I read one of these was avoiding accountability, so being so focused on being the servant or being nice that you don't want to hold people accountable, and it reminded me of a story that you shared with me, steve, of a young leader that you were talking to, and they were struggling to hold someone accountable. There was something that they did that was obviously not acceptable. The normal thing that you would want to do would be to hold them accountable maybe even a performance document, who knows but the point is not, where was that performance management step, but really the leader's mindset. So they were really struggling because they were like well, I don't know if I should be doing that as far as a performance management document, because I'm really trying to practice servant leadership and I feel like that's in conflict. And do you remember that story, steve?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do Lupe and common misconception too. Right is that. You know, if I document something and really it's around performance or lack of performance, or needing to help somebody understand a better decision they could have made, help somebody understand a better decision they could have made. The leader in this case felt that they were not being a good servant leader, trying to understand why the person made that decision, and so I had to just let them know that part of being a servant leader is to allow them the opportunity to understand a better decision that they should have made. But as a leader, you still need to document it, because if that behavior continues over time, there is a loss of accountability, and being a good servant leader is all about accountability as well, and so that was kind of the nuts and bolts around that conversation I had.
Speaker 1:I feel like a lot of the struggles that young leaders or inexperienced leaders, new leaders, can really fall into that trap, and it's not just the example that you gave, steve, but just accountability in general they mistaken. I want to be sort of the hey, we want to have a happy family. I will hear this also. It's because we're a family, we want to keep that vibe going. I want to make sure people feel and I love it. I love at least a part of that. The other part is hey, okay, but we can't be a dysfunctional family, we need to be functional family.
Speaker 1:And I give them an example hey, if my brother were to do something or say something that would insult one of our sisters in a public setting, I would not allow that to continue. Or I would not allow that to happen without me talking to my brother about like hey, I don't think that was appropriate. I think you should apologize. That type of thing versus letting it happen and not saying anything because I don't want to ruffle any feathers. To me, that takes the courage to be able to say something and know that you need to be the leader to say something, versus letting it go by because you don't want to rock the boat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well said, lupin. I think you know balancing servant leadership and you know really still having that development factor. You know, as a new leader, it can be tough, and so I think the lesson learned and the example that we started off talking about, is that servant leaders need to really prioritize the needs and growth of their team, create that environment and that condition for trust and collaboration to be developed, but also maintain the authority that's needed, based on ensuring accountability and effective decision-making is in place. And to me, if you can do that and it is a balance, and you have people on your team that are going to be at different points of their own maturity level, and so again, kind of going back to that conversation we had with Ben Blaney a couple sessions ago, it's really balancing what that need is for that individual environment, with the clear boundaries.
Speaker 2:You know, empowerment through delegation, and then the transparency that you were just talking about is going to be a key to that success. And you know you don't have to be perfect either. That's the other thing. I think you and I have talked about that with several leaders and don't worry about being perfect and if, for some reason, you start down a direction and it feels like it's not going in the right way, then you know redirect, correct and that's really kind of those, those boundaries, and you know making them even more clear, I guess yeah, I agreed, so that that's one of the ones I talked about avoiding accountability.
Speaker 1:That example really resonated with me when I was reading the list. The other one is over-functioning for the team, so it's described as jumping in to solve every problem instead of empowering others to learn and grow. So this really happens. I think my experience has told me that it's even more so for people that consider themselves or maybe they don't consider themselves, but they are perfectionists. It's like, hey, I feel like I can do it better and oh, by the way, if I do that, I'm being a servant leader, I'm trying to help my team.
Speaker 1:There's a fine line there somewhere where you've got to be able to let them do it and step back, and in some organizations I've actually walked into the expectation is that the leader like, let's say, the supervisor, the supervisor does all that, does all problem solving, does all decision making. I feel like that's not what you want to do. But then, if the pendulum swings the total opposite end of the spectrum, now we're like I don't make any decisions, I don't make any, you know, and sometimes that's not realistic. You've got to know how to balance that while while increasing your people's capability, empowering them and delegating to them the things that they can, they can handle. Your, your goal really is to try and prepare them for that and to push them out of that comfort zone. Right, yeah, the the story that that resonates with me, for that is one where a gentleman that that we were in training with shared it and I thought it was very powerful. They admitted it was like, hey, you know, when we got this new leader, he came in and we were having a lot of problems. It was on a bottling line and, like we're having so many problems with this, this case transition, where these cases were moving through a conveyor and it was just causing a big mess and this new leader was just standing around observing the whole chaotic situation. And we were over here. This is the gentleman talking. We were over here like moving cases and trying to, you know, deal with the situation. And that person was very frustrated at the leader because he's thinking why is this guy not helping us? I mean, that's what all our supervisors or our leaders did in the past. And here's this guy just standing around doing nothing. From their perspective, what they later realized was well, the person was observing. What they later realized was well, the person was observing, trying to understand the root cause of the problem. And here's the catch they were able to fix that issue, an issue that existed for several years, but no one was able to figure it out because they were too busy helping the team.
Speaker 1:So to me, that represents the example of am I a servant leader in helping everyone by doing the work with them all the time? Because, hey, the more I do that, the more I'm serving the team? Right, it's kind of the way they think. Or is my role different in that I have to be able to step back and fix the problems the team's dealing with? So, are we going to deal with problems or are we going to fix problems? And I feel like the leader needs to be able to step back, just like a head coach from a team. Step back, understand what's going on, what's the defense that the other team's playing? What are the offensive strengths? How do we pivot during the middle of the game so that we gain the advantage? Because if you don't do it as a coach, who else is going to do it? Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, lupe, that's important. And I was thinking through another example, and this kind of takes me back to, you know, working in a different environment outside the US. It's a very high up-tempo environment where decisions were having to be made really quick. And in that environment, you know, the initial thought that I had first time going into it is that, well, this is going to be not a good place for servant leadership to be present because decisions have to be made so quick and so you really have to rely on, you know, this quick decision-making capability and you haven't necessarily gained the trust you know with the team. But what was interesting in that environment, I recognized just the opposite that servant leadership was so important. Probably the best example I can give in that space was after doing about eight months of work in a country outside the US in a heavy equipment vehicle repair center. We had developed some tools that gave us visibility into the current state of repair of vehicles. You know where there were constraints, potentially in parts coming in, and it just it created better snapshot that we can give to the customer at the time as to where their vehicle was at in the repair cycle and then where we needed to focus the constraints, to kind of clear up those spots. And once we created those systems and started to lay out the boundaries of where people could work in the systems, it really took a lot of the pressure off that leadership team that felt like they were having to make all the decisions.
Speaker 2:And when I really saw this come into play was after leaving that contract and coming back to it for a visit about two years later. A new leader had come in and, for whatever reason, there wasn't a good transition into the tools and systems that were in play. And so I met with them and the gentleman was completely frustrated, basically said hey, thanks for coming to visit, I don't have time. I've got this big customer briefing coming up and I just don't know the current state of our vehicle repair center. And I thought, wow, that's really odd, because this solution that we came up with a couple of years ago should still be in place.
Speaker 2:I didn't say that to the individual at the time because I wasn't sure, but I went down to a work center where I knew the likelihood of that system, if it still existed, being present, would be present, and I started talking to a couple of the folks that were working in there, recognized them from several years back and I said, hey, do you guys still have the green report available? And they looked at me and they're like, smiled and go, yeah, we still have it. I go well, hey, how often do you produce that report now? And they kind of looked and they said, well, no one's asked for it in about three months. And I was like, aha, that was the transition time with the one leader going out and there was no overlap new leader coming in and they missed that onboarding step.
Speaker 2:And so it just showed that the ability to allow people to create these systems and solutions and then ask those questions as a leader where you need help, great things will come out of that. And in this case it was actually something that just you know was not a good handoff. And you know, I found in that very fast moving environment that even in that environment, you know, having good delegation, transparent systems and fostering that mutual respect with those individuals that had been working, you know, years before, and that it was easy for me to to come in and quickly help the new leader in that position, gain, gain control over the situation. And they were flabbergasted when I walked in with the report that gave them the status of every vehicle in their shop and kind of where any constraints were, so that one example of creating that environment, that servant leadership, even in a fast, rapid decision-making situation will work right decision-making situation will work right yeah, here's another one that's on this list is sometimes the leader struggles because they want to please everybody, right?
Speaker 1:They want to get a consensus, they want everyone to agree to it before moving forward, and the reality is that you often do not get consensus and so you've got to make the decision, and there are situations where I'm making a decision that I know that is unpopular with the team. More people disagree with the decision, but it's a decision that needs to be made. So how do you become a servant leadership in that? Because I've heard some leaders mistakenly say well, my team doesn't agree with that and therefore, as a servant leader, I want to make sure and support them and I'm like, okay, there's aspects of that that I understand and I agree with, but then there's aspects of it that I'm like, okay, that I don't agree with, and let me break that apart for our listening audience. The aspects I agree are that, yes, you want to be a servant leader when it comes to decisions, by getting people's input and perspective and making sure that you're listening to their people that disagree with you.
Speaker 1:For example, if they disagree with me, I'm going to ask and seek to understand them. Why is this person disagreeing? What are the things that they're pointing out? But it definitely doesn't mean that blindly accepting that because someone says something that I have to support that belief. If it doesn't make sense to me, if it doesn't change the context of the decision, then I'm probably going to stick with it.
Speaker 1:The key, though, is that I'm listening and seeking to understand, versus dismissing people and their opinion and not even trying to figure out. What is it that they're trying to tell me. To me, that's the difference between being a servant leader in a decision-making situation versus making the mistake of being I'm going to say, a false servant leader, because that's not what servant leadership is about is just accepting what your team wants or doesn't want, because sometimes it's like parenting and Simon Sinek, I think, has said something like this in one of his videos where it's like a parent. You have to sometimes make decisions that are popular or in the best interest of the team, and sometimes the team's not going to be in alignment with you, and you just got to realize that, as a leader, that is part of your role. I don't know if it's unfortunate or unfortunate part of your role, but it is part of your role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lupe, you touched on a couple things there. You know the emotional intelligence piece is critical to develop as an individual when you're leading teams so that you know you really can learn to use active listening to build trust, empathy, to understand the other person's position. It's still going to require you to be flexible in your approach. Sometimes you're going to require you to be flexible in your approach. Sometimes you're going to have to be more authoritarian in your stance because the situation is grave or there really has not been a lot of development on the team that can make that kind of decision. At the end of the day, you own it, it's your team and you're responsible.
Speaker 2:But we've both learned that the other times where you can create that collaborative approach, the better ideas typically emerge, the feeling of being a part of a team starts to move forward and what you can accomplish is much greater, and so I think that's okay to recognize that. Yeah, sometimes you're going to have to be a little bit more authoritative in your position, other times collaborative, and again it depends on how the situation and how far you've been able to develop that team. And just going back to your point of being a good listener, even if you're going to have to make a different decision than what they're bringing to you, or that happens. That's real life and I think you got to consider. When that does happen, make sure you're able to explain to the individuals you're speaking with or the team you're leading as to why, in this situation, we are going to have to go in a different direction Totally agree with you.
Speaker 1:One of the other items that was listed was neglecting your own needs. So I'm such a servant leader that I'm running myself ragged. I'm prioritizing doing things for the team versus doing things for myself, and that's just not sustainable. Right, you've got to be able to be at the top of your game. I see leaders that try to sacrifice. They'll work six, seven days a week, let's say and this is an extreme example They'll work six, seven days a week so that their team can get a day, maybe two days, off their direct reports, and I think that's admirable.
Speaker 1:I think that's something you can do from time to time, but to do it all the time because you're trying to make sure that you're quote unquote taking care of the team is, I don't think, is wise, because you have to be at the top of your game, and so you need to be the example of being able to do the work-life balance thing. You have to be the example about like, hey, I'm not going to be at work 12 hours if that's not necessary because I want to look good. The best thing you can do is take care of yourself so that you're sharp, you've got good decision-making abilities, you're aware of your environment, you're aware of what's going on and you're able to do critical thinking. You know when you run into problems and be able to guide the team. So if you're exhausted or if you're not been investing in yourself, then I feel like you're not going to do a good job for the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, develop that self-awareness check-in, I think is really critical, you know, regularly reflect on, you know, the leadership style that you've been utilizing and recognize that, yeah, there's times where you probably do need to step away and unplug a little bit because you can fall into the trap of, I would say, over-serving, and really, in those cases when that happens, you're also not intentionally, but just respecting your team a little bit because they're going to be willing to step up.
Speaker 2:In many cases, you just simply have got to give them that opportunity right and then, at the end of the day, it's a win, you know, for everyone, lupe, I think the other thing that, going back to some of our previous podcasts and our guest, ron Crabtree, his the conversation with him really, you know, focused on the modern business environments and you know, maybe we can end our conversation today just talking a little bit about what servant leadership looks like in modern business.
Speaker 2:As you mentioned, you know we're using AI more and more in our applications of, you know, leading teams, but also just in conversations that we have to, you know, really give us a quick access to the information. I think, in terms of areas of modern servant leadership, you know you have to look at embracing technology really, the promotion of diversity and inclusion, the balancing of agility and consistency and that's kind of where going back to that. You know when do you need to be a servant leader more and when do you maybe need to be more authoritative, but just balancing that agility and consistency at the end of the day, with that focus on, you know, empowering your employees, create something that you talk about a lot, which is fostering the psychological safety, and if you can balance all those things and it is a balance, you know that's really kind of that modern day leadership needed in the current times.
Speaker 1:I think, steve, it would be great for us to what do you think maybe we give some examples of? Okay, so if those are things we don't want to do as a servant leader, what are the things we should be doing Like? What are examples of things that we want to do, or at least some of our recommendations, right? So here's one example. And again, all of this, I feel, contributes to building the psychological safety right, that circle of safety, as Simon Sinek has called it several times on many of his videos. One example is listening first and giving your opinion of a situation last.
Speaker 1:If you're in a meeting, you're in a discussion, someone wants to know. A lot of times people will look at the leader in the room, whoever the highest ranking leader is, and they'll wait for them to go first. It's almost like they expect them to give their opinion first. Right, don't resist the temptation. Say something like I'd rather wait to hear everybody else first. And why is that? Well, because I realized that my position, whether I like it or not, sometimes can influence people. So if I give my opinion now, all of a sudden there'll be some people like well, I don't want to disagree with Lupe, maybe I'll say the same thing, I'll say yeah, I like that idea, and so it squashes that ability for those people to express their ideas. Their opinions first unfiltered or unbiased by your opinion. Their opinions first unfiltered or unbiased by your opinion. And, as a servant leader, I would advise our listeners to be the last one to give their opinion if I am the highest ranking person in that room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great example, lupe. I think the other one when we say promote diversity, and inclusion right into that. And you know, when I hear the term diversity, it's really hearing those other opinions within the group. Everybody comes from a different place and can bring more insight or different insight into the problem. And again, if the leader talks first, you miss those opportunities to learn yourself what other ideas individuals have out there.
Speaker 2:And some of the best solutions to problems that I've had to work on really come from that environment where people are bringing their perspective because you've given them that opportunity. And then, once you've done that we've talked to a couple of our guests just about you know how they've been able to use servant leadership to empower their teams. And you know, once you start setting that stage of listening, collecting ideas, of listening, collecting ideas and empowering those ideas now to be implemented, they get better and better over time, that the team becomes more capable and allows you to really kind of step back into that leadership development role that's so important. So, yeah, really, you know, setting that environment, that space, is key.
Speaker 1:Why don't you give us another behavior or example of a behavior that would support servant leadership?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think another good example of behaviors that support servant leadership is looking to the team and understanding that each individual on that team you've got to invest in kind of where they're at in their journey, because you're going to have some people that are just really capable and you let them go.
Speaker 2:But even with those very capable people, you've got to recognize that if you don't check in with them and make sure that you're got to recognize that, if you don't check in with them and make sure that you're developing them as much as maybe the newest person on the team needs support, you're going to miss that opportunity and eventually you know that the teamwork will start to break down. So I think you know, looking at your team, understanding and purposefully looking at their individual development and not taking for granted people that are high performers, because that can happen really easy and then they leave, they'll want to exit out of your organization because they are high performers and they're like, hey, I'm not being recognized for my contribution or it's just kind of taken for granted. So I think that's you know. Another part of being a good servant leader is to recognize both ends of the spectrum in developing your team.
Speaker 1:You just triggered a thought of mine around. Sometimes leaders will use the excuse and I do say it's an excuse to say that, well, you know, people need to ask for development. If they're interested, they would come see me and talk to me. I'm like, okay, I can understand that, hey, people with initiative will do that, but not everybody's going to do that. Are you going to sit back and just wait for that to happen, which most of the time will not happen, or are you going to be more intentional and proactive in your approach as a leader in developing your team? So I would propose that you should be more intentional versus I don't know. I kind of see it as a cop-out when you're like, well, they didn't come talk to me about their development. I'm like, okay, I get that, but your responsibility is to bring them into the conversation, not for them to create the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great point, great point.
Speaker 1:To be able to create the safe space people have to feel confident in disagreeing with you and doing that in the appropriate manner. Of course you don't want anybody saying oh Steve McKeon, your opinion sucks, right, that's not very professional, that's not very productive. But I've had leaders that I've had to coach and mentor around those situations, because they immediately get defensive and they're like oh, so-and-so started questioning why this or why that? I'm like well, tell me what's wrong with that, why does it bother you so much? Now I can understand that sometimes people have bad intentions. Where they're coming from is really just trying to showboat. Maybe Okay To me, that's more around the situation.
Speaker 1:Okay to understand. Okay, this person is saying something that's really crazy for me right now, but I need to understand why they're saying what they're saying. Right Versus all that. They're just a troublemaker and I feel like if you're responding in a way that shuts that type of disagreement down, then I think that you're making a mistake.
Speaker 1:Again, some people have a pattern of behavior. That would be a different situation, where there's someone that's always showboating, wanting to look good in front of everybody, trying to stir the pot, if you will. I feel people are smart enough that they can separate the two, like is this really a legitimate concern and do they maybe have a good point, or is this just a pattern of behavior that this person has probably exhibited? And maybe that's an offline discussion? And I tend to say something like hey, I'd love to talk to you about that more After we're done with this meeting or this gathering. Let's genuinely talk about your concerns and then from there you're able to sift out whether it's a genuine issue that they have or if they were just trying to find a moment of glory, I guess, with their peers.
Speaker 2:What do you think of that, steve? I think that's good, and my ideas do suck sometimes, so it's good that when you have that psychological safety or the environment where that you know your idea is challenged all the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not immune to the sucky idea every now and then, and I think just the ability to get that input from your team, when something where they can come to you and say, hey, I don't necessarily agree, this is the right way to go and listen to it, and that's hard. That's hard for people to learn how to do, especially when you're leading a team and there's many things to look at in a day. So, really good, call out there, lupe, and a point to bring up. Hey, as we kind of wind it down here today, I'd like to get your thoughts on is there a difference between being a transformational leader and a servant leader? Because a lot of times people will relate one to the other, but there are, I think, a little bit of nuances. How would you describe that? Or do you think I'm incorrect in my general?
Speaker 1:statement there. I do feel that many of the things that we just talked about related to servant leadership. Right is around. Some of the behaviors are also creating that psychological safety. Yeah, so I think there is an element, but I don't think that they're exactly the same for sure no-transcript is that I see servant leadership really as a part of being a transformational leader.
Speaker 2:There's times where you're going to have to really make those bold decisions and you have to know when those times are that you need the participative decision-making from the team. And I think being a transformational leader is the ability to know both sides, like when you need one leadership style a little bit more than the other and they're not exactly the same, but they're not in conflict either as kind of the old hierarchy of control leadership styles. Yeah, as people kind of close out listening today, just curious as to your thoughts as well and appreciate the opportunity again, lupe, as always, to visit with you and talk a little bit more about leadership.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always fun to talk about something we have such a passion for, right? Steve, and you know I would say we have our disagreements, but there are. I feel like there are few and far between.
Speaker 2:I have to disagree with that, luke. Yeah no.
Speaker 2:I think we've got alignment, and I guess the other side of that, though, is that we do learn from each other, because we're not always aligned or we don't you know, we don't understand the other person's position, and so, even as a leader, the peer-to-peer leadership reflection, I think, is really important, as well as leading your teams, because your peer leadership team that you're a part of can be very powerful when you know you're open to listening and really leveraging some of the same skills as a servant leader with your peer group. So, with that, lupe, why don't we start to wind it down? This is Steve McKeon and this is Lupe Munoz and this is the Leadership Exchange. Thank you, have a great day. Outro Music.